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Problem inputting a new minor planet
#1
Hi Greg,

I tried to add a new minor planet to the database using the procedure described in the Help Page. I tried to use the 'Get single planet from the MPC' option under the 'Download/Import Data' Option. When I submit the designation, the MPC responds with "Designation not matched". Neither the number designation nor the name nor both is recognized. The 'Help' button doesn't bring up any help. I didn't want to download a bunch of MP's just to get the data for 2 of them. Plus the ASTORB database is not working correctly per your message.

I found the osculating elements at the JPL Small-Body Database Browser and entered the elements manually. The format of the elements provided by JPL isn't recognized by ST4i. Another web search found the data from the MPC after I'd already done the manual input of the JPL data. The MPC apparently knows about this object (10482) Dangrieser, so why the "Designation not matched" message?.

I now have the 2 new minor planets added to a Target List, but there is no minor planet plotted on the Interactive Atlas for either one of these objects. Also, (1) Ceres is not plotted on the atlas. The osculating elements for Ceres are also out of date in my ST4i database and I can't seem to download the current ones from the MPC. I get the same "Designation not matched" message when I submit the request for the elements.

I haven't tried to copy and paste the data from JPL or the MPC into a text file and input that into ST4i. Should I try that?

TIA,

Phil S.
Reply
#2
Hi Phil,

As far as I know, none of our beta testers were into minor planets, so I am not too surprised that you are running into problems. I have used these features a lot myself, however, so I am surprised by the number of problems you have found.

1. I hadn't used the enter single minor planet feature in some time, and it is clearly broken. I can't even get it to recognize Ceres. There may have been a change on the MPC end. I will have a fix for this soon, along with the Help button.

2. I am disappointed that the elements from JPL were not recognized. I will look into this too. It may be a matter of which format is used. At the very least this needs to be better explained in the help.

3. Whether or not a object is in a target list doesn't matter. What matters is that it be in the minor planet database.

4. I very recently discovered a problem with the way orbital elements are used from the MPC, regarding the epochs of their orbital elements. It has to do with the time of year, which is why it wasn't caught previously. This is likely why Ceres didn't show up for you. I have been working on this all week and will release an update when it is fixed.

As a workaround, I suggest downloading minor planets from the ASTORB database. To avoid large numbers of minor planets, check the box next to "Numbered only" before you download. This should make Ceres and Dangrieser appear on the charts and update the elements used in your target list.
Clear skies,
Greg

SkyTools Developer
Reply
#3
Hi Greg,

The minor planet orbital elements displayed by the JPL Small-Body DB Browser are in a fancy web page format with the elements displayed in an odd layout. Here's the result of a simple Copy/Paste:

Orbital Elements at Epoch 2458600.5 (2019-Apr-27.0) TDB
Reference: JPL 23 (heliocentric ecliptic J2000)

 Element
Value
Uncertainty (1-sigma) 
 Units 
e
.2017297236915599
3.0711e-08
 
a
2.293761452380303
9.2243e-09
au
q
1.831041588377273
7.1818e-08
au
i
6.340221081958195
3.6725e-06
deg
node
70.01995444590536
3.5373e-05
deg
peri
297.1662937433705
3.7082e-05
deg
M
83.22878358450872
1.3334e-05
deg
tp
2458307.146112127889
(2018-Jul-07.64611213)

4.6087e-05
TDB
period
1268.88072954627
3.47

7.6542e-06
2.096e-08

d
yr

n
.2837146089599215
1.7114e-09
deg/d
Q
2.756481316383332
1.1085e-08
au

 
The info is there. I didn't try to paste it into the ST4i Minor Planet input dialog though.
Just tried to do the Copy/Paste - it doesn't seem to work.

(1) Ceres is in the database, but the element set is for March 2018 - too old. The elements for (10482) and (10483) that I added to the database show up in bold in the ST4i database indicating that they're in use. The element date is 27 APR 2019. My database now has ~2800 element sets with the 27 APR 2019 date.

ST4i is plotting objects with element data for 8 OCT 2018 which is apparently the date that applies to the objects in the Current Minor Planets Target List. The ST4i Interactive Atlas displays "72 minor planets at this epoch" at the bottom right of the chart. The Minor Planet Database shows 72 objects in the 9 OCT 2018 "Saved Epoch". It doesn't appear to be plotting any of the objects from the 27 APR 2019 epoch.

One of your earlier messages said that the ASTORB data base was having problems and to not use it. ST4i has the elements for the added objects, it just won't put a dot on the Interactive Atlas. The Exposure Calculator shows the apparent mags and will calculate SNR's, etc. Object Info displays the appropriate info, too - just no dot on the atlas.

I think I'll stand pat until you issue an update that fixes these issues, unless you'd like me to try more stuff (except ASTORB). My machine is fairly fast (takes ~5 sec to recalculate a Target List with 124 Objects when I change an Imaging System , Location, Camera Lens, etc), but some of the bigger lists like one with 1200 open clusters requires almost a minute to update. That can add up  Smile .

Thanks for a great program,

Phil S.

Hi Greg,

The minor planet orbital elements displayed by the JPL Small-Body DB Browser are in a fancy web page format with the elements displayed in an odd layout. Here's the result of a simple Copy/Paste:

Orbital Elements at Epoch 2458600.5 (2019-Apr-27.0) TDB
Reference: JPL 23 (heliocentric ecliptic J2000)

 Element
Value
Uncertainty (1-sigma) 
 Units 
e
.2017297236915599
3.0711e-08
 
a
2.293761452380303
9.2243e-09
au
q
1.831041588377273
7.1818e-08
au
i
6.340221081958195
3.6725e-06
deg
node
70.01995444590536
3.5373e-05
deg
peri
297.1662937433705
3.7082e-05
deg
M
83.22878358450872
1.3334e-05
deg
tp
2458307.146112127889
(2018-Jul-07.64611213)

4.6087e-05
TDB
period
1268.88072954627
3.47

7.6542e-06
2.096e-08

d
yr

n
.2837146089599215
1.7114e-09
deg/d
Q
2.756481316383332
1.1085e-08
au

 
The info is there. I didn't try to paste it into the ST4i Minor Planet input dialog though.
Just tried to do the Copy/Paste - it doesn't seem to work.

(1) Ceres is in the database, but the element set is for March 2018 - too old. The elements for (10482) and (10483) that I added to the database show up in bold in the ST4i database indicating that they're in use. The element date is 27 APR 2019. My database now has ~2800 element sets with the 27 APR 2019 date.

ST4i is plotting objects with element data for 8 OCT 2018 which is apparently the date that applies to the objects in the Current Minor Planets Target List. The ST4i Interactive Atlas displays "72 minor planets at this epoch" at the bottom right of the chart. The Minor Planet Database shows 72 objects in the 9 OCT 2018 "Saved Epoch". It doesn't appear to be plotting any of the objects from the 27 APR 2019 epoch.

One of your earlier messages said that the ASTORB data base was having problems and to not use it. ST4i has the elements for the added objects, it just won't put a dot on the Interactive Atlas. The Exposure Calculator shows the apparent mags and will calculate SNR's, etc. Object Info displays the appropriate info, too - just no dot on the atlas.

I think I'll stand pat until you issue an update that fixes these issues, unless you'd like me to try more stuff (except ASTORB). My machine is fairly fast (takes ~5 sec to recalculate a Target List with 124 Objects when I change an Imaging System , Location, Camera Lens, etc), but some of the bigger lists like one with 1200 open clusters requires almost a minute to update. That can add up  Smile .

Thanks for a great program,

Phil S.

Hi Greg,

The minor planet orbital elements displayed by the JPL Small-Body DB Browser are in a fancy web page format with the elements displayed in an odd layout. Here's the result of a simple Copy/Paste:

Orbital Elements at Epoch 2458600.5 (2019-Apr-27.0) TDB
Reference: JPL 23 (heliocentric ecliptic J2000)

 Element
Value
Uncertainty (1-sigma) 
 Units 
e
.2017297236915599
3.0711e-08
 
a
2.293761452380303
9.2243e-09
au
q
1.831041588377273
7.1818e-08
au
i
6.340221081958195
3.6725e-06
deg
node
70.01995444590536
3.5373e-05
deg
peri
297.1662937433705
3.7082e-05
deg
M
83.22878358450872
1.3334e-05
deg
tp
2458307.146112127889
(2018-Jul-07.64611213)

4.6087e-05
TDB
period
1268.88072954627
3.47

7.6542e-06
2.096e-08

d
yr

n
.2837146089599215
1.7114e-09
deg/d
Q
2.756481316383332
1.1085e-08
au

 
The info is there. I didn't try to paste it into the ST4i Minor Planet input dialog though.
Just tried to do the Copy/Paste - it doesn't seem to work.

(1) Ceres is in the database, but the element set is for March 2018 - too old. The elements for (10482) and (10483) that I added to the database show up in bold in the ST4i database indicating that they're in use. The element date is 27 APR 2019. My database now has ~2800 element sets with the 27 APR 2019 date.

ST4i is plotting objects with element data for 8 OCT 2018 which is apparently the date that applies to the objects in the Current Minor Planets Target List. The ST4i Interactive Atlas displays "72 minor planets at this epoch" at the bottom right of the chart. The Minor Planet Database shows 72 objects in the 9 OCT 2018 "Saved Epoch". It doesn't appear to be plotting any of the objects from the 27 APR 2019 epoch.

One of your earlier messages said that the ASTORB data base was having problems and to not use it. ST4i has the elements for the added objects, it just won't put a dot on the Interactive Atlas. The Exposure Calculator shows the apparent mags and will calculate SNR's, etc. Object Info displays the appropriate info, too - just no dot on the atlas.

I think I'll stand pat until you issue an update that fixes these issues, unless you'd like me to try more stuff (except ASTORB). My machine is fairly fast (takes ~5 sec to recalculate a Target List with 124 Objects when I change an Imaging System , Location, Camera Lens, etc), but some of the bigger lists like one with 1200 open clusters requires almost a minute to update. That can add up  Smile .

Thanks for a great program,

Phil S.

Hi Greg,

Here's additional info about the plotting of minor planets on the Interactive Atlas. ST4i apparently doesn't use the osculating elements with the closest date to the date displayed on the Target List Selector or Interactive Atlas. It only uses elements with dates BEFORE the dates that are displayed on the atlas, etc. My database contains 72 minor planets for 8 OCT 2018 and 2871 minor planets for 27 APR 2019. On 25 APR 2019 the atlas shows 72 minor planets for the epoch and my new objects aren't plotted. On 26 APR 2019 the atlas shows 2871 minor planets for the epoch and my new objects are plotted on the atlas. 

Hope this info helps to resolve the problem.

Phil
Phil Schumacher
Reply
#4
Hi Phil,

Thanks for the additional info. Copy/Paste of orbital elements assumes a standardized format. Both the MPC and JPL have standard formats that can be displayed via their ephemeris and orbital element tools.

The problem with ASTORB has been addressed by the people who maintain the download. I wouldn't have suggested using it otherwise. Please feel free to download the elements as I suggested.
Clear skies,
Greg

SkyTools Developer
Reply
#5
Hi Greg,

I just saw your update on the ST4i Discussion Forum about the fix to ASTORB. I didn't see the standard formats for JPL or MPC minor planet elements. I'll try to find them.

Sorry about the triple entry of the previous message. I don't know how that happened. I only tried to post the reply once and went back to read it. When I added the post for the updated info the prior post had been triple posted.

I'll check out ASTORB now that it's fixed. Can I request elements for OCT 2018 from JPL or MPC? That way ST4i will plot the object on the atlas.

Thanks,

Phil S.
Reply
#6
Hi Phil,

ASTORB should provide the date close to the current epoch so that it will be displayed on the atlas. It is the MPC data that causes difficulty, and for which I am working on a fix.
Clear skies,
Greg

SkyTools Developer
Reply
#7
Hi Greg,

I downloaded minor planet elements from ASTORB. I now have elements for epochs 2018 Dec 11 and 2019 Jan 16. ST4i now plots the asteroids I was looking for on the interactive atlas. I also have ~84k elements listed for epoch 2018 Oct 9 and ~27k elements for epoch 2019 Apr 27. The large # of entries doesn't seem to slow the drawing of the atlas view.

Thanks for your help,

Phil S.
Reply
#8
(2018-12-14, 03:55 AM)PMSchu Wrote: The large # of entries doesn't seem to slow the drawing of the atlas view.

I am glad to hear that because I spent many months of development time, perhaps more that a year, finding clever ways to make what will soon be a million minor planets draw as quickly as possible.
Clear skies,
Greg

SkyTools Developer
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