A few things about smart project builder.
I wanted to see how it compared to my own project of IC410, the tadpoles. So I entered my imaging system, filters, etc. Used the search tool to find some targets in target selection. Then entered the smart project builder.
First thing, instead of opening with all of the things I had selected in the target tool like location, imaging scope, etc, smart project builder opens with some default items which are totally different (maybe authors stuff). So first thing you need to do is reset everything to what you have already selected in the target selection tool. They should be carried over, to make the tool smart. I agree you should be able to edit them, but they should at least be the same as in the target selection tool.
Next thing, all of the sub exposures, for every filter, are 20 minutes (my max exposure time) when I set total exposure time to 5 hours (I guess this is per filter). L, R, G, B, Ha, SII, OIII.. every one is 20 minutes sub-exposure. I'm not sure how useful that is.
As a sub note here, when you have multiple filters, you should allow a range of possible exposure times per filter... because narrow band may be 20 minutes, but I'd never see doing a luminance image for 20 minutes. And the SNRs aren't balanced across filters, just maximum for what 20 minute exposure gives for each filter.
But If you instead set SNR quality, which is exclusive of setting time per filter, then you get more reasonable exposure times, but you can no longer set total exposure time, you just get the amount of time to hit an SNR, which I'm not clear is all that useful from a practical standpoint. The Tadpoles are primarily a narrowband target. A lot of Ha, and much dimmer OIII, and get RGB for stars. In this case, the smallest exposure time is for Ha which is really going to make your object, and the longest for SII. I'm not sure I'd run things this way for a pleasing image. Not doing science here, just looking for a pleasing image. It recommends G at 70 minutes and Ha at 20 minutes, SII for 240 minutes, OIII for 30 minutes, and so on. OIII in this object needs much longer exposures than 10 minutes because the signal is so low, so this doesn't match my experience. Why is that? Now I understand that this is to hit an fixed single SNR for all filters. Just wondering how practical it is. For star data only, you need minimal time and exposures such that you don't blow out stars. Maybe there should be a setting for this kind of an image. It's really SNR for stars much of the time when you take RGB for narrowband targets.
Total exposure time. I set this to 5 hours but at first I didn't realize it's per filter, not total for the object. Every filter is set for 15x20 minutes, or 5 hours. I thought I'd get some mix of exposures to fit within an imaging time. Just setting them all to the same total exposure, not sure how useful this is. Is there a way to set total imaging time. Say I'm at a star party, I wanted to image this object and it's going to be up for 8 hours, is there a way to get an optimized use of that time?
Total object exposure: I'm wondering if it makes sense to have a total imaging time (that you have).. and what's the best mix or exposures to fit into that and show the maximum object SNR you can get.
Gain. Gain seems fixed, so while I have 2 different gains, one 0 and one 100, it just uses whatever you pick. Might make sense to pick intelligently as I'm not really clear with the ASI6200 when to use gain 0 and use mostly gain 100.
I haven't had the tool for long, so apologize if I'm not using it correctly. Entirely willing to learn. It's why I entered this in newbie area.
2024-01-30, 07:31 PM (This post was last modified: 2024-01-30, 07:32 PM by theskyhound.)
Hello and welcome!
So, that's a lot to breakdown. Lets start with opening the SPB.
When I right-click on a target in the Target Selection Tool and select Smart Project Builder, the following default values are adopted: Imaging System, Location, and focal changer. I suppose the binning should also be inherited from the Target Selection Tool, but that's a special case. I'm still on the fence on that one because the way its used on the SPB is different from the Target Selection.
The other selections are going to depend on what you want to do, so they do start with default values, starting with the Purpose and mode. There is no context to inherit for these things. I experimented with having them default to the last values used, but that doesn't really solve the problem unless you only do one very narrow type of imaging. Maybe it would make sense for some people. I am awaiting feedback on that.
So why didn't you inherit the values from the Target Selection Tool? Did you use a right-click on a target to open it? If so, I think this may be an indication of wider problems. In fact, looking at your other issues, it appears that a lot of things are broken. I suspect that there is an incorrect setting in your location of imaging system. This is common when people are first starting out, because there are a lot of things to input, and it may not be clear when you are first inputting them what effect they are going to have later.
Lets start with your location: a common mistake is to reverse the latitude and longitude or to have the longitude switched from east to west or vice versa, so please check that. One quick way to spot problems with the location is to look at the graphic at the top of the Target Selection tool. The dark period of the night should be centered near midnight.
Please upload screen captures of your camera settings so I can check them. Once we have everything set up properly, we can talk about suitable test subjects.
(2024-01-30, 07:31 PM)theskyhound Wrote: Hello and welcome!
So, that's a lot to breakdown. Lets start with opening the SPB.
When I right-click on a target in the Target Selection Tool and select Smart Project Builder, the following default values are adopted: Imaging System, Location, and focal changer. I suppose the binning should also be inherited from the Target Selection Tool, but that's a special case. I'm still on the fence on that one because the way its used on the SPB is different from the Target Selection.
The other selections are going to depend on what you want to do, so they do start with default values, starting with the Purpose and mode. There is no context to inherit for these things. I experimented with having them default to the last values used, but that doesn't really solve the problem unless you only do one very narrow type of imaging. Maybe it would make sense for some people. I am awaiting feedback on that.
So why didn't you inherit the values from the Target Selection Tool? Did you use a right-click on a target to open it? If so, I think this may be an indication of wider problems. In fact, looking at your other issues, it appears that a lot of things are broken. I suspect that there is an incorrect setting in your location of imaging system. This is common when people are first starting out, because there are a lot of things to input, and it may not be clear when you are first inputting them what effect they are going to have later.
Lets start with your location: a common mistake is to reverse the latitude and longitude or to have the longitude switched from east to west or vice versa, so please check that. One quick way to spot problems with the location is to look at the graphic at the top of the Target Selection tool. The dark period of the night should be centered near midnight.
Please upload screen captures of your camera settings so I can check them. Once we have everything set up properly, we can talk about suitable test subjects.
Hi, Thank you for the fast reply. You were certainly right about the location being wrong, not swapped latitude and longitude but an extra '3' in front of my latitude making it 374 instead of 74. I guess that'll mess things up.
You know I've been building lists of objects for 2 locations, my home in Vermont and the Winter Star Party in Florida, where I'm heading. And I was right clicking to look at the smart project builder recommendations or at least thought I was. After fixing latitude, I noticed that I was back to default location, and scope, etc. So not sure when that changed. I reset to my location in the target selection tool and did a right click from Target selection to enter the smart project builder and it does start out with the location as it was in target selection. So not sure, maybe operator error here.
A couple of screen shots attached on location and camera parameters. I use a common camera, so most data was right out of your database, except one of the gains was incorrect. And I swore I added dark current but it's a super small number, so maybe it's just for all intents and purposes zero.
Hi again, I guess I should have put in the last window after the longitude fix that I still see wild results. I shared my camera settings. Filters are input fairly detailed and look correct.
Here are results for the same object, which I just imaged and may take more images at the winter star party. The recommendations in the smart project builder are no where near where I'd expose, or need to, to get a good image.
With the corrected longitude, smart project builder did start up with the correct location and scope.. thanks for pointing this out.
In Smart Project builder I get these results:
With total 5 hours of exposure option set:
Lum is showing 8x20 min
Ha is showing 8x20 min
OIII is showing 8x20min
G is showing 8x20 min
SII is showing 8x20 min
R and B filters are conspicuously absent - not sure why
When I change to 20, acceptable image quality:
33 hr for lum
70hr for Ha
114hr for OIII
166 hr for Green
1671hr for SII
They are still all 20 min exposures and there still is no B or R filter. I included filter data files below. Filter exposure ranges should be by filter.
So back to my original question, I'm not sure how to use this data, it doesn't help me set exposure or plan a night of imaging.
What would be idea is for instance give a number of nights or hours of total object imaging and have Smart Project Builder make recommendations for the best mix of LRGB or narrowband to create an image. And narrowband targets should be focused on narrowband filters plus RGB for stars.
Broadband targets should be set for LRGB (with L balanced with RGB overall exposure). Maybe a setting(s) to make this obvious as to what filters are doing what.
In any case, the data that's most useful is the target selection tool to help find targets, the exposure information that I see isn't very useful. Now maybe I'm using it wrong or something is still set wrong. Looking to learn and fix it.
1. I am concerned that the files you used for your filters may not be formatted correctly. Please send a screen capture, with the Edit Filter dialog open for one of your filters, so I can see the graph.
2. If you want to check things out, I suggest a different target. You happened to pick IC 410, which currently doesn't have any emission line data available for it. There are no emission line catalogs for HII regions, so I have been building my own, based on my own photometry. Its a laborious project, but I have it rolling along now. I am working on a big data drop, and it should be available very soon, like the end of the week if things go well. This will add line strengths for many more nebulae that are common narrowband targets. Without the line actual strengths, they are estimated, based on available broadband color data, and its not always that accurate. To tell if the data is estimated, open the Object Info. It is also indicated on the Exposure page of the Imaging Project, once one is created.
Lets work with M27 for the time being because I know it has valid emission line data.
3. How do you use SNR to help set exposure or plan a night of imaging. There are more steps after the SPB. Its purpose is to create an Imaging Project, and especially it will fill out the exposure goals for each filter. A goal can be to reach a given exposure time, or to reach a given SNR. SNR is a measure of the quality of your images. I suggest reading the SPB help page for an explanation of how SNR is used as a goal. Its the most powerful feature of the software. If you have questions after reading that, and maybe the help for the Imaging Project as well, please feel free to ask.
Once you have an Imaging Project with exposure goals, you usually use the Scheduler to plan a night of imaging. The Scheduler will work more efficiently if you have more than one project defined, because it determines the best time of night to image in each filter for a target, and it is common for one target to not be available for the entire night (or even the part of the night you are imaging).
The Scheduler will attempt to get all of your observations in one night to reach your goals. If not, you enter a summary of what images were obtained in the Observations tab of the Imaging Project. This keeps track of what you have already done, and the Scheduler will only schedule images that are needed to finish the project.
I noticed that the system listed in the top left box of the SPB is for a "TEC 140 and 6200MM". Does this system really have a 6.2 meter focal length, or am I misinterpreting this? Is this a result of the focal extender?
2024-01-31, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 2024-01-31, 07:13 PM by theresamarie11.)
(2024-01-31, 05:25 PM)PMSchu Wrote: Hi,
I noticed that the system listed in the top left box of the SPB is for a "TEC 140 and 6200MM". Does this system really have a 6.2 meter focal length, or am I misinterpreting this? Is this a result of the focal extender?
Phil S.
6200MM refers to the camera, an ASI6200MM.
Terri
(2024-01-31, 03:58 PM)theskyhound Wrote: Hello,
1. I am concerned that the files you used for your filters may not be formatted correctly. Please send a screen capture, with the Edit Filter dialog open for one of your filters, so I can see the graph.
2. If you want to check things out, I suggest a different target. You happened to pick IC 410, which currently doesn't have any emission line data available for it. There are no emission line catalogs for HII regions, so I have been building my own, based on my own photometry. Its a laborious project, but I have it rolling along now. I am working on a big data drop, and it should be available very soon, like the end of the week if things go well. This will add line strengths for many more nebulae that are common narrowband targets. Without the line actual strengths, they are estimated, based on available broadband color data, and its not always that accurate. To tell if the data is estimated, open the Object Info. It is also indicated on the Exposure page of the Imaging Project, once one is created.
Lets work with M27 for the time being because I know it has valid emission line data.
3. How do you use SNR to help set exposure or plan a night of imaging. There are more steps after the SPB. Its purpose is to create an Imaging Project, and especially it will fill out the exposure goals for each filter. A goal can be to reach a given exposure time, or to reach a given SNR. SNR is a measure of the quality of your images. I suggest reading the SPB help page for an explanation of how SNR is used as a goal. Its the most powerful feature of the software. If you have questions after reading that, and maybe the help for the Imaging Project as well, please feel free to ask.
Once you have an Imaging Project with exposure goals, you usually use the Scheduler to plan a night of imaging. The Scheduler will work more efficiently if you have more than one project defined, because it determines the best time of night to image in each filter for a target, and it is common for one target to not be available for the entire night (or even the part of the night you are imaging).
The Scheduler will attempt to get all of your observations in one night to reach your goals. If not, you enter a summary of what images were obtained in the Observations tab of the Imaging Project. This keeps track of what you have already done, and the Scheduler will only schedule images that are needed to finish the project.
1) I can do screen captures of the filter data. That was the first place I went when the B and R filters were not being shown, but the graphs look correct to me. See screenshots below. The G and L along with narrow band are represented in the Smart Project builder but not the B and R. Not sure why
2) So does the software then not work for all targets? Can you help me understand, maybe I'm trying to use something that isn't ready. How do we know what targets have valid emission line data? How many of the targets? My goal for purchasing this tool are:
1) find targets appropriate to image in quality/ability and scale for my telescope. IC410 is A and A for IQ and scale for where i'm going.
2) optimize the time i'm imaging to make the best use of my limited time on targets by optimizing exposure per filter.
(I'll read but I'm unclear on this capability now)
3) I guess maybe the thing that you may not understand is how limited opportunities exist in some areas. like visiting a dark sky area for a week, or living in Vermont. Sometimes we have one or two nights out of 2 months to capture all of a project in the winter months. This is not unusual and many people I know have the same issue in various parts of the country. This is not like a observatory in Chile or NM where you have 250 clear nights and will plan a 1/2 dozen targets to shoot daily. So I want to optimize my very limited time to capture a target. Maybe the software does not do this.
Can you clarify?
Terri
(2024-01-31, 03:59 PM)theskyhound Wrote: One other thing out of curiosity: are you using a Mac or Linux? The fonts in your screen captures look weird.
2024-01-31, 08:43 PM (This post was last modified: 2024-01-31, 08:46 PM by theskyhound.)
Your filters look fine.
I'll try again to explain the issue with various HII objects.
SkyTools is designed to provide optimal imaging recommendations for narrow band filters based on available emission line data. For many targets, such as M27, this data is available, allowing for accurate exposure optimization. However, in the case of IC 410, the emission line data is not yet available, and the software must estimate based on less reliable broadband color data. This means that while SkyTools can still provide guidance for IC 410, the recommendations are based on estimations and might not be as accurate as for other targets with complete data. If there is a possible problem with your setup, we need to eliminate the possibility that it arises from the lack of data. The upcoming update will add more nebulae with accurate emission line data. See my previous explanation for how you can check to see if the emission line data is estimated (try opening the Object Info for IC 410).
Some calculations are affected more than others if the emission line data is estimated. Exposure times for narrow band filters are what is most affected, so the results of the SPB for narrow band filters, and your exposure goals might be a little suspect. The best period of time during the night to image, even in narrow band filters, is the least affected and can be relied upon.
Regarding number 3, someone said something similar here just a few weeks ago, so it is a common concern. But it is not a valid concern. Once you understand how to use the software to give you what you need/want, you will see that there is no assumption built in about how long you can image something. This is something that *you* decide. Tools like the SPB are designed to help you make that very decision.
Since you are most familiar with the SPB at this point, let me explain how it is best used. You decide what your goal is at the top, under Mode. If you express your goal as a total exposure time, enter the maximum amount of time that you think you will be able to spend on the target. It will then tell you what the quality of your images will be in each filter and for the final composite, in terms of SNR. Be sure to understand what the SNR values represent.
The other approach is to specify the minimum quality that you want in your final composite image, again in terms of SNR, and again, it is important to understand what the values represent. I like to use an SNR of 20 to represent the minimum acceptable quality of the final image. So when you specify a minimum quality of SNR=20, it will tell you how much exposure time is required to reach that SNR.
You are not being dictated to about this. Its advisory. Its telling you what you can expect in the time you have available for the project, and for each set of filters. The best results float to the top in the table, but you can scroll down to see other options. Either pick an option that you deem is doable, or select a different target. If you select a different target, that's not SkyTools fault. It's just telling you what you can reasonably expect so that you can make the call. What I understand doesn't come into play.
Moving on to scheduling: if you only have one project then you risk either getting crappy data by imaging your project when you shouldn't be, or wasting time under a clear sky. This is why it is a good idea to have multiple projects, so it can make the best use of your time available. Again, this has nothing to do with being in Chile. You tailor things to fit your own expectations. But if your target is setting after 11 PM, why not have a project that can start at 11?
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